Denied The Struggle

[jas61292]

This concept by WhiteDMist was approved for discussion. Is this concept worth pursuing? If so, what questions could we ask? How could we improve this? Everyone is free to discuss the following submission as if this was a concept discussion.

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Name: The Struggle

General Description: A Pokémon specializing in PP stalling one or more opponents using one or more methods.

Justification: PP Stalling is a strategy that tends to occur only in long stall battles or in certain Other Metagames (I 'm sure we've all noticed that one replay on PS). Yet outside of these kinds of situations, it isn't generally a strategy that players actually aim for except as a last resort/if they have nothing better to do. This concept aims at learning how far one can attempt to PP Stall the opponent, the various methods that can be used to this end, and the means to incorporate such a specific strategy into one or more playstyles.

Questions To Be Answered

• What are the various methods to PP Stall, and what are the necessary components?
• Is PP Stall a viable win condition?
• What effect(s) (if any) will PP Stall have on moveset choices during teambuilding?
• Can a Pokémon rely on PP Stall and still be viable in the metagame?
• Will PP Stall affect how conservatively a player uses their low PP moves?
• What kind of teams would a PP Stall specialist fit into?
• Is it possible to PP Stall in a offensive manner and/or a defensive manner?
• What other factors must this concept take into consideration to achieve a viable PP Stall CAP?
• Is such a strategy better as an overall team focus or as a support to a bigger overall strategy? Can it be both?

Explanation: PP Stall is mostly an ignored strategy, mainly because few Pokémon are dedicated solely to it. There are several Pressure Pokémon viable in OU, but for most of them it is a fall-back strategy when they have no reason to use their many other (mostly support) options. Moves that reduce PP are available, but are a waste of time for little to no short-term/mid-term benefit. So what this concept would focus on are strategies that actively try to stall out PP and find out which ones would truly be effective. The few non-Pressure Pokémon that can PP Stall generally use strategies such as: SubRoost, Wish + Protect, RestTalk, or just spamming other forms of recovery. There is no need for a CAP using this concept to rely on any of these mentioned strategies (though they would definitely help as a launch point), as these tried-and-true strategies are moderately known and wouldn't help us learn too much more. But there are other aspects (typing and stats for the actual CAP process, battling abilities for actual games) that also play a role that we as a whole have little knowledge of that can make or break this concept. That's also not taking into account your opponent either. Affecting people's decisions about power vs. accuracy (as many powerful moves have low PP and/or is inaccurate) is just one of many factors this concept would touch on.

As for how applicable/transferrable this concept would be in the regular OU metagame (or in any other metagame): PP Stall may be an underused strategy, but it can occur in a battle when you least expect it. Understanding all the variables that need to be taken into account on both sides is the key to this concept, and it is definitely knowledge that can be used everywhere. Even in the normal OU metagame there are low PP moves that can easily be stalled out and, thanks to new mechanics, we have even more factors to take into considerations such as typing and status relations. Would the continuously changing metagame affect a PP Stalling strategy? Even learning something about how stalling out just one move affects one's overall strategy would be a great thing to take from this CAP concept. It would be a great learning experience to see what ideas are used to try and make this concept a practical reality, even if we aren't blundering around in the dark for it.

 

[Alfalfa]

Kyurem back during BW2 was capable of Pressure stalling in an offensive manner on more balanced builds. It could PP stall attacks from a number of slower Pokemon, or flat-out threaten them with nearly perfect coverage in Ice Beam and Earth Power. However, in the ORAS metagame, an offensive PP staller would be quite difficult to pull off. There is an immense amount of speed creep and priority, which would make a strategy difficult to use offensively. Defensively might not be difficult to pull off, but what is going to keep an offensive Pokemon from attempting to set up on it? Being passive is just not that excusable anymore, so we would probably have to make this Pokemon have a lot of speed, HP, and decent offenses so it is not completely passive.

 

[WhiteDMist]

Kyurem back during BW2 was capable of Pressure stalling in an offensive manner on more balanced builds. It could PP stall attacks from a number of slower Pokemon, or flat-out threaten them with nearly perfect coverage in Ice Beam and Earth Power. However, in the ORAS metagame, an offensive PP staller would be quite difficult to pull off. There is an immense amount of speed creep and priority, which would make a strategy difficult to use offensively. Defensively might not be difficult to pull off, but what is going to keep an offensive Pokemon from attempting to set up on it? Being passive is just not that excusable anymore, so we would probably have to make this Pokemon have a lot of speed, HP, and decent offenses so it is not completely passive.

Well, I agree that the effectiveness of this kind of strategy took a blow because of power and speed creep between generations. That said, this doesn't automatically mean that stats have to be a certain way. Nor does the concept say that the Pokemon would be restricted to only PP stalling passively: the concept is vague enough that the Pokemon is able to at least defend itself one way or another. PP stalling doesn't have to be all about draining the PP of ALL the opponent's moves; sometimes just draining 1 move is sufficient to allow a path for a teammate, or the concept Pokemon itself, to win the battle (this is where factors such as typing and movepool come in). Maybe it's the term "PP Stall" that makes people think it's only about stalling, but PP draining can also be a means to an end. So let's not limit this to a certain mindset already if possible.

And isn't CAP meant to be trying to learn more about the metagame by testing different concepts, not trying to make a great Pokemon in the metagame? While not at all impossible to make it one, there should be no obligation to make a perfect CAP for a metagame (that's a possible reason why some CAP projects get derailed from the spirit of the concept). At the least, this concept wouldn't oblige anyone to try and do so. Perfect Pokemon or not, the concept would make players far more likely to keep an eye on their low PP moves and not use them recklessly (and force all players to learn to keep track of PP, maybe make use of resources like the Dex).

 

[KhosroTheGreat]

The point of CAP, as I understand, is primarily to generate discussion, and learn more about the metagame, but of course a good and balance end product is always wanted, but the discussion takes priority.

Additionally, I just wanted to add a nice example to what WhiteDMist was saying about PP Draining: I was watching one of the CAP guys on PS playing I think it was UU, where I remember that they had cleverly PP Stalled the Fire Blasts of the Chandelure by Wish + Protecting with a Florges, and thereafter the player with the Florges could use a Bulletproof Chesnaught to block this Choiced Chandelure's Shadow and Energy Balls, which was pivotal in his eventual victory.

In the example, it was Florges' extremely high SpD, along with some questionable Fire Blast spam, that led to the PP Drainage. How we can relate this into our CAP, I do not know, because, unless we make it more niche (Specially Defensive PP Drainer) or something which is too strong because of its powerful [insert stat(s) needed to drain here].

 

[Alfalfa]

Well, I agree that the effectiveness of this kind of strategy took a blow because of power and speed creep between generations. That said, this doesn't automatically mean that stats have to be a certain way. Nor does the concept say that the Pokemon would be restricted to only PP stalling passively: the concept is vague enough that the Pokemon is able to at least defend itself one way or another. PP stalling doesn't have to be all about draining the PP of ALL the opponent's moves; sometimes just draining 1 move is sufficient to allow a path for a teammate, or the concept Pokemon itself, to win the battle (this is where factors such as typing and movepool come in). Maybe it's the term "PP Stall" that makes people think it's only about stalling, but PP draining can also be a means to an end. So let's not limit this to a certain mindset already if possible.

And isn't CAP meant to be trying to learn more about the metagame by testing different concepts, not trying to make a great Pokemon in the metagame? While not at all impossible to make it one, there should be no obligation to make a perfect CAP for a metagame (that's a possible reason why some CAP projects get derailed from the spirit of the concept). At the least, this concept wouldn't oblige anyone to try and do so. Perfect Pokemon or not, the concept would make players far more likely to keep an eye on their low PP moves and not use them recklessly (and force all players to learn to keep track of PP, maybe make use of resources like the Dex).

This quote did actually give me an idea - I was thinking in my mind of PP stalling something like Talonflame's Brave Bird, but then I realized you could just recoil stall it. I think Poison Heal + high speed or Pressure is really mandated on a Pressure staller though. Substitute + Poison Heal + Protect can PP stall various attacks for several turns, as seen with Gliscor before people learned to use Specially Defensive / Physically Defensive sets. I was thinking something like Poison Heal Gliscor, but actually has a number of targets that it could actually attract and stall out. Think of like PP stalling Fire Blasts / Flamethrowers / Focus Blasts from Zard Y using Poison Heal + Sub + higher speed + Protect, in which Zard Y is lured in and tries to muscle through it. Just being able to stall out wallbreakers like Landorus / Zard-Y / Kyurem-B would be severely crippling for a team dependent on these wallbreakers to muscle through bulkier Pokemon. However, this will likely result in the resurgence in wallbreakers that can get past Substitutes, like Mega Gardevoir and Mega Heracross, but being able to stall out a number of offensive Pokemon would be very useful.

 

[WhiteDMist]

The point of CAP, as I understand, is primarily to generate discussion, and learn more about the metagame, but of course a good and balance end product is always wanted, but the discussion takes priority.

Additionally, I just wanted to add a nice example to what WhiteDMist was saying about PP Draining: I was watching one of the CAP guys on PS playing I think it was UU, where I remember that they had cleverly PP Stalled the Fire Blasts of the Chandelure by Wish + Protecting with a Florges, and thereafter the player with the Florges could use a Bulletproof Chesnaught to block this Choiced Chandelure's Shadow and Energy Balls, which was pivotal in his eventual victory.

In the example, it was Florges' extremely high SpD, along with some questionable Fire Blast spam, that led to the PP Drainage. How we can relate this into our CAP, I do not know, because, unless we make it more niche (Specially Defensive PP Drainer) or something which is too strong because of its powerful [insert stat(s) needed to drain here].

Well, my thinking was more along the lines of making a Pokemon with a typing that actually draws in common low PP moves (Fire Blast, Close Combat, Hydro Pump, Leaf Storm, etc.) and stalling them out one way or another (Substitute is ideal, but perhaps Protect and some form of reliable healing). But yes, your example is something notable that PP Stall can accomplish.

This quote did actually give me an idea - I was thinking in my mind of PP stalling something like Talonflame's Brave Bird, but then I realized you could just recoil stall it. I think Poison Heal + high speed or Pressure is really mandated on a Pressure staller though. Substitute + Poison Heal + Protect can PP stall various attacks for several turns, as seen with Gliscor before people learned to use Specially Defensive / Physically Defensive sets. I was thinking something like Poison Heal Gliscor, but actually has a number of targets that it could actually attract and stall out. Think of like PP stalling Fire Blasts / Flamethrowers / Focus Blasts from Zard Y using Poison Heal + Sub + higher speed + Protect, in which Zard Y is lured in and tries to muscle through it. Just being able to stall out wallbreakers like Landorus / Zard-Y / Kyurem-B would be severely crippling for a team dependent on these wallbreakers to muscle through bulkier Pokemon. However, this will likely result in the resurgence in wallbreakers that can get past Substitutes, like Mega Gardevoir and Mega Heracross, but being able to stall out a number of offensive Pokemon would be very useful.

Any effects on what Pokemon are used just add to the learning experience. Yeah, recovery or Pressure do seem to be one of the more effective ways to do fulfill the concept, so I might suggest a slight alteration of the concept: rather than focusing on only PP stalling, this concept would focus on that and all other ways to force your opponent to Struggle. This can include things like Tricking Choice items, SubDisable, and even Taunt. Not a necessary thing, but it may broaden the concept a little. Thoughts?

 

[nyttyn]

The biggest problem is that there really isn't much in the way of being able to force struggle/PP drain a move. Obviously you need Pressure, or this strat isn't even viable to begin with. But, even then, there aren't many moves that are viable to PP stall out in the first place.

I mean, just look at this team I have here:

Bisharp/Mvoir/Azelf/Scizor/Keldeo/Gengar

Of the 6, obviously Azelf doesn't even care since it can taunt back, and it'l ljust poop out rocks then go boom. Scizor, you could maybe disable, if you survive its banded move or if it doesn't just u-turn. Bisharp has exactly one move you can PP stall out, Sucker Punch. Gardeoivr can't be stopped because hyper voice goes past sub (which is also why sub poisonheal and subtaunt aren't viable anymore thanks to her and sylveon), Keldeo's moves all have too much PP to be stalled out, and Gengar can only have Focus Miss PP stalled out.

I mean, sure, PPstall can be viable in some situations, but even against this one team it doesn't have much to do in the way of forcing a PP stall. Most teams don't have very many low PP moves on them, with Stone Edge, Focus Blast, Sucker Punch, Hydro Pump, and Close Combat usually being on a max of 2/3 mons per team, and even then, you can reasonably only switch in on one or two of those moves.

 

[NumberCruncher]

To further complicate matters, anything that would bait out Stone Edge would bait out Rock Slide, anything that would bait Hydro Pump would bait Scald, anything that would bait Close Combat would bait Drain Punch, and anything that would bait Sucker Punch would bait Knock Off. Basically all the low PP moves you can bait could also lead to medium/high PP moves, which would make this guy's job far harder.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I'm a fan of this concept. We don't have to make a Pokemon that can PP stall an entire team, we need to make a Pokemon that can threaten PP stall against various Pokemon. Furthermore, this Pokemon doesn't have to just PP stall opposing offensive Pokemon, it can also attempt to out-stall current OU stallers. It's very difficult to PP stall a Mega Gardevoir or a Mega Charizard Y, but if CAP 20 can outstall Ferrothorn or Hippowdon it still accomplishes this concept. Even if we want to PP stall offensive Pokemon, we just have to concentrate on low-PP moves and the Pokemon that use them. CAP 20 with Pressure could drain an opponent's Fire Blast or Stone Edge by switching in four times. Sure, Pokemon like Mega Gardevoir and Sylveon (although the latter gets less viable by the second) can get behind a Substitute, but it's not like there aren't type and stat combinations that let our CAP take a hit.

I believe that the role of a dedicated PP Staller, or at least a defensive Pokemon that can threaten PP Stall, is definitely viable in OU and would be enjoyable to explore.

 

[LightningLord2]

Small tip: If the CAP is a tank stat-wise, the PP stalling can support it additionally in its playstyle - do you use high-power moves and risk burning up your PP or do you use medium-power attacks that might not KO and cause you to lose your Pokémon or get walled?

 

[Billy the Uncle]

To be fair, Spite is also there as a mean of PP drain a move. Not the most reliable one maybe, but I think we shouldn't overlook it. Substitute and recovery moves can do a lot for PP stalling too.

A possible execution of the concept is a Pokemon who is only threatened by one move on most common movesets, but can take it once if needs be. Most of the time, CAP20's purpose will be to take said move and then proceed to stall the rest of the PP through various means.

Personally, though, I believe we should gear this project about PP stalling a few selected threats of the metagame. Otherwise, we might end up with a Pokemon with an incredible stalling prowess. More precisely, it should be directed at stalling moves with low PP off common threats (for instance, a Bug type CAP draining the Stone Edges out of Landorus-t then effortlessly taking its Earthquakes. Very simplistic, I know, but I hope it gives off the idea).

 

[WhiteDMist]

The biggest problem is that there really isn't much in the way of being able to force struggle/PP drain a move. Obviously you need Pressure, or this strat isn't even viable to begin with. But, even then, there aren't many moves that are viable to PP stall out in the first place.

I mean, just look at this team I have here:

Bisharp/Mvoir/Azelf/Scizor/Keldeo/Gengar

Of the 6, obviously Azelf doesn't even care since it can taunt back, and it'l ljust poop out rocks then go boom. Scizor, you could maybe disable, if you survive its banded move or if it doesn't just u-turn. Bisharp has exactly one move you can PP stall out, Sucker Punch. Gardeoivr can't be stopped because hyper voice goes past sub (which is also why sub poisonheal and subtaunt aren't viable anymore thanks to her and sylveon), Keldeo's moves all have too much PP to be stalled out, and Gengar can only have Focus Miss PP stalled out.

I mean, sure, PPstall can be viable in some situations, but even against this one team it doesn't have much to do in the way of forcing a PP stall. Most teams don't have very many low PP moves on them, with Stone Edge, Focus Blast, Sucker Punch, Hydro Pump, and Close Combat usually being on a max of 2/3 mons per team, and even then, you can reasonably only switch in on one or two of those moves.

I don't know the OU metagame at all, except for the little I glean from reading the subforum occasionally; that said, is the meta completely focused on offense? Because it is true that offense makes life difficult for this kind of concept. But it's also not impossible to stall out mid-to-high PP moves, and Pokemon that bypass Subs can also be dealt with either with typing, movepool, or stats. Something as simple as Disable/Torment/Protect can go a long way as well. Besides, the concept does try to find situations where PP stall is viable (questions 2/4) and tries to find more situations that generally are not possible with existing similar, though less focused, Pokemon (such as Kyurem).

To further complicate matters, anything that would bait out Stone Edge would bait out Rock Slide, anything that would bait Hydro Pump would bait Scald, anything that would bait Close Combat would bait Drain Punch, and anything that would bait Sucker Punch would bait Knock Off. Basically all the low PP moves you can bait could also lead to medium/high PP moves, which would make this guy's job far harder.

True, the lower PP moves would still be a problem. But that IS one of the points/questions: how does the concept affect the way players choose their movesets? Would the lower PP moves completely disappear in favor for the weaker but more reliable moves?

I'm a fan of this concept. We don't have to make a Pokemon that can PP stall an entire team, we need to make a Pokemon that can threaten PP stall against various Pokemon. Furthermore, this Pokemon doesn't have to just PP stall opposing offensive Pokemon, it can also attempt to out-stall current OU stallers. It's very difficult to PP stall a Mega Gardevoir or a Mega Charizard Y, but if CAP 20 can outstall Ferrothorn or Hippowdon it still accomplishes this concept. Even if we want to PP stall offensive Pokemon, we just have to concentrate on low-PP moves and the Pokemon that use them. CAP 20 with Pressure could drain an opponent's Fire Blast or Stone Edge by switching in four times. Sure, Pokemon like Mega Gardevoir and Sylveon (although the latter gets less viable by the second) can get behind a Substitute, but it's not like there aren't type and stat combinations that let our CAP take a hit.

I believe that the role of a dedicated PP Staller, or at least a defensive Pokemon that can threaten PP Stall, is definitely viable in OU and would be enjoyable to explore.

Yeah, PP stalling defensive Pokemon is considerably easier, though I admit I don't know how popular stallier teams are in OU. PP Stall is a type of stall that both an offensive or defensive Pokemon can perform. PP Stalling just one move, or one Pokemon, is more than enough imo. Thank you for your support! :>

Small tip: If the CAP is a tank stat-wise, the PP stalling can support it additionally in its playstyle - do you use high-power moves and risk burning up your PP or do you use medium-power attacks that might not KO and cause you to lose your Pokémon or get walled?

One of the questions this concept would try to answer! :D

To be fair, Spite is also there as a mean of PP drain a move. Not the most reliable one maybe, but I think we shouldn't overlook it. Substitute and recovery moves can do a lot for PP stalling too.

A possible execution of the concept is a Pokemon who is only threatened by one move on most common movesets, but can take it once if needs be. Most of the time, CAP20's purpose will be to take said move and then proceed to stall the rest of the PP through various means.

Personally, though, I believe we should gear this project about PP stalling a few selected threats of the metagame. Otherwise, we might end up with a Pokemon with an incredible stalling prowess. More precisely, it should be directed at stalling moves with low PP off common threats (for instance, a Bug type CAP draining the Stone Edges out of Landorus-t then effortlessly taking its Earthquakes. Very simplistic, I know, but I hope it gives off the idea).

Yeah, there's no reason to immediately assume Pressure. Even though it is probably the best fit, there are still other abilities that can work. Type immunity abilities, Regenerator, Prankster, and several others can all fit if you take the concept a certain way.

 

[nyttyn]

I don't know the OU metagame at all, except for the little I glean from reading the subforum occasionally; that said, is the meta completely focused on offense?

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-01/metagame/ou-0.txt http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-01/metagame/ou-1500.txt http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-01/metagame/ou-1695.txt http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-01/metagame/ou-1825.txt


Short answer, Yes.

Long answer, Offense and Balance make up the most common playstyles by a considerable margin. While balance is seen as the 'best' playstyle for laddering, Offense is still more popular, and true stall and semistall teams are definitely the least common. You can target specific moves, sure and certainly to PP stall out, but trying to stall out more than one or two specific mons in a heavily offensive meta is going to be...questionable at best. You also aren't dealing with the low PP moves AND Mega Gardevoir AND Sylven AND special Mega Altaria AND Mega Heracorss AND Mamoswine AND Breloom. I'm not saying that this will make the concept impossible, but do keep in mind the meta is extremely unfavorable towards PP stalling.

 

[WhiteDMist]

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-01/metagame/ou-0.txt http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-01/metagame/ou-1500.txt http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-01/metagame/ou-1695.txt http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-01/metagame/ou-1825.txt


Short answer, Yes.

Long answer, Offense and Balance make up the most common playstyles by a considerable margin. While balance is seen as the 'best' playstyle for laddering, Offense is still more popular, and true stall and semistall teams are definitely the least common. You can target specific moves, sure and certainly to PP stall out, but trying to stall out more than one or two specific mons in a heavily offensive meta is going to be...questionable at best. You also aren't dealing with the low PP moves AND Mega Gardevoir AND Sylven AND special Mega Altaria AND Mega Heracorss AND Mamoswine AND Breloom. I'm not saying that this will make the concept impossible, but do keep in mind the meta is extremely unfavorable towards PP stalling.

Hmm, then it will definitely be a challenging concept to to focus on, especially without creating other roles that branch outside of forcing Struggle. I mean, it's not impossible to make a CAP of this concept that is vulnerable to low PP moves while still being able to check some of what you mentioned (not all, that would be rather off-putting). Isn't one of the points of CAP is also to see what effect, if any, a CAP has on the metagame.

That said, any opinion on what I previously suggested? Rather than focusing solely on PP Stall, this concept would focus on all methods that cause an opponent's Pokemon to Struggle. It keeps in the spirit of the original concept but adds in more leeway for this concept to not only be a learning experience, but viable in the metagame as well.

Any effects on what Pokemon are used just add to the learning experience. Yeah, recovery or Pressure do seem to be one of the more effective ways to do fulfill the concept, so I might suggest a slight alteration of the concept: rather than focusing on only PP stalling, this concept would focus on that and all other ways to force your opponent to Struggle. This can include things like Tricking Choice items, SubDisable, and even Taunt. Not a necessary thing, but it may broaden the concept a little. Thoughts?

Anyways, I guess the question is: is this concept worth pursuing, or is there a way to improve the basis to make it more feasible (I made one suggestion, I'm interested to see more)?

 

[Empress]

Despite the supposed "unfriendliness" of the OU metagame for a PP staller, I do not believe that should stop us from going through with this concept. Similar to what Ignus outlined in the Sticky Web Support concept, we can only make a conjecture as to what OU would look like with a mon of this caliber. We should not be so quick to pass judgment on it; even if this CAP fails to PP stall its foes, we have learned something about the OU metagame, which is the main focus of the CAP Project. In this case, we will learn how PP stall can be an effective strategy, or why it cannot. We're looking for a mon to make such a strategy viable, and though we know what PP stall strategy entails, we do not know what a viable user of said strategy would look like in OU. Even in this generation, though, we have a taste of a viable PP staller, as Kyurem is plenty capable of doing it in UU. It has the bulk and a surprisingly good defensive typing, as well as high offensive stats to prevent it from being Taunt bait. Even though we know about it in UU, the CAP Project isn't about UU- it's about OU, and OU does not have a viable PP staller.

Also, WhiteDMist, I'm a bit divided on your new proposal. I've seen such a tactic in XY Ubers, as I remember the several times I Pressure-stalled Choice Scarf Kyogre into using Struggle after its Water Spouts had been exhausted. Other combinations include Tricking a Choice item then using Taunt or Disable, or Encore then Taunt or Disable. These strategies can work on defensive mons and setup sweepers alike, but unlike standard PP stall, such a mon would typically cause only one opposing Pokemon to start to Struggle. Moreover, on paper, they seem a little gimmicky, which is not a good sign for any strategy. What did you have in mind here?

 

[KhosroTheGreat]

The only time I've seen Struggle in OU is when a Rest + Trick Choiced Gothitelle traps, tricks and then stalls out a Chansey. Considering how bad Chansey's offensive presence is, along with its drop in viability since ORAS, it isn't exactly the best example of OU staple in any sense of the word.

 

[LightningLord2]

While it's not technically PP stalling, there's two (rarely used) moves that can help burning through PP - Spite (could work on a wallish mon) and Grudge (That's more of a thing for a different concept)

 

[Empress]

While it's not technically PP stalling, there's two (rarely used) moves that can help burning through PP - Spite (could work on a wallish mon) and Grudge (That's more of a thing for a different concept)

There's a reason why each move is rarely used. Most Pokemon (read: all of them) that have access to Spite are not dedicated PP stallers, meaning they have little use for the move. As for Grudge, sacrificing your mon in order to drain opposing PP is just not worth it in most situations. It takes up a moveslot, and you can switch mons instead of sacrificing the one that's currently out.

 

[WhiteDMist]

Also, WhiteDMist, I'm a bit divided on your new proposal. I've seen such a tactic in XY Ubers, as I remember the several times I Pressure-stalled Choice Scarf Kyogre into using Struggle after its Water Spouts had been exhausted. Other combinations include Tricking a Choice item then using Taunt or Disable, or Encore then Taunt or Disable. These strategies can work on defensive mons and setup sweepers alike, but unlike standard PP stall, such a mon would typically cause only one opposing Pokemon to start to Struggle. Moreover, on paper, they seem a little gimmicky, which is not a good sign for any strategy. What did you have in mind here?

On my phone so I won't go too deep into this but it's really just a suggestion to extend from pp stalling into focusing on the end result which is forcing the opponent to struggle. Of course I would prefer to keep to the original concept as focusing on struggle removes the nuances of what pp stalling can teach us

 

[nyttyn]

After discussion on IRC, I believe that this concept is too limited, lacks any real learning capabilities, locks us into a specific ability, and numerous other reasons that, while well written, leave me severely wanting.

1/2 declined

 

[WhiteDMist]

After discussion on IRC, I believe that this concept is too limited, lacks any real learning capabilities, locks us into a specific ability, and numerous other reasons that, while well written, leave me severely wanting.

1/2 declined

I'm not sure what you mean by the concept being too limited. There are so many ways to make a CAP with this concept, with many notable methods having been listed, and there is no reason that the concept mon cannot defend itself, even if it doesn't have spectacular offenses. I already touched upon the ability, and while I acknowledged that Pressure is an ideal ability, that there are some other viable abilities that still work with the concept, especially if it combines better with the stats, movepool, and typing. The concept itself actually leaves room for customization, as the only limitation is that PP stalling/forcing Struggle should be the main focus. I can't fully defend the concept against reasons if they haven't been stated, but please list them so that I may try. Finally, please at least help suggest possible adjustments to the concept itself to see if there is a way to make it worth pursuing before deciding that it is not worth it (not targeting you specifically, but for everyone who is able to make a decision).

 

[Uberon]

This is an interesting sounding idea. Probably the best abilities would be either pressure or shadow tag. (unless you go for gale wings/prankster healing which has been done before)

 

[ginganinja]

QC REJECTED 2/2

Reasons why:

Pressure + Substitute + Roost = Completed Concept.

This concept is extremely limiting, because unfortunately the above combination is highly regarded as one of the best ways to achieve the desired outcome and you don't actually learn anything. We all know how CroCune / SubRoost Zapdos worked in DPP, how SubRoost Kyurem worked in BW, there just isn't anything particularly interesting to learn. Don't throw Spite at me, its a gimmick move and no-one really cares enough to use it, besides, the above combination works better anyway without running a shitty move. There isn't really a positive adjustment to the concept, and its not even a particularly healthy concept to begin with, its toxic enough having to deal with PP stalling when you can do jack about it (like SubRoostPressure) without creating some top tier OU mon that can do this extremely well. You don't even "force" struggle since people will generally just switch out or use like, a non attacking move like Spikes or something that doesn't care about having its PP dropped.

I could write an essay as to all the things why this isn't a particularly useful concept, but then again, I don't need to.